Episode 403: Don’t Avoid Giving Feedback to Your Employees

Paul: Who was your first concert? Do you remember?

Kristen: My first concert was the Smashing Pumpkins –

Amanda: Oh!

Kristen: And Garbage was the opener.

Paul: Wow!

Amanda: Garbage?! I love Garbage. I still –

Paul: That explains a lot about you.

[laughing]

Kristen: It was the beginning of a wonderful relationship with music.

Paul: Aw, I like that story.

Kristen: Well, not the beginning, but the beginning of the live music portion of it.

Amanda: Yeah.

Kristen: I wasn’t one of those lucky kids that got drug along to, like, James Taylor concerts or something. My parents weren’t into that. So.

Amanda: Paul, yours. Your turn.

Paul: I’m, this is painful.

Amanda: Oh, no. Is it Hannah Montana?

Paul: It’s as bad.

Amanda: [laughing]

Paul: It’s as bad.

Amanda: Hannah Montana is great. I don’t know what you’re talking about.

Paul: You may not even know who this is. There were these people who were on television, they had their own show, and they had a few hit songs they were called Captain and Tennille.

Kristen: I know who that is!

Amanda: Oh, my gosh.

Kristen: Very nice.

Amanda: That is bad.

Paul: But after that, it was Jackson Browne.

Kristen: Okay.

Amanda: Hmm.

Paul: So I just want to be clear that I got significantly cooler.

Amanda: Significantly cooler.

Paul: And then, as you all know, I had a live music venue so I put on like five, I’m not kidding, like 5000 live shows for several years.

Kristen: That’s awesome.

Paul: Yeah, over several years.

Amanda: Well, you went to one, when was it? A couple of weeks ago?

Kristen: Just a few weeks ago. Yeah. Well I, I went to one that was just a little local venue here Wednesday night. Small group.

Paul: Mm hmm.

Kristen: Never know quite what to expect with the opener but I always love when I’m pleasantly surprised.

Paul: Love a good opener.

Amanda: For sure.

Kristen: When you’re like, “Oh, I didn’t know this was anybody I should ever listen to.” And it turns out to be, like, a really great band. So the opener was this band called Buttercup, and they’re this kind of, they call themselves Art Pop. It’s kind of like David Byrne funky.

Paul: Right.

Kristen: They’ve got visual, a lot, lots going on. Anyway, they were a lot of fun. We enjoyed them. And when their set was done, and everyone’s just kind of milling around, waiting for the headliner, they went around and handed out performance evaluations.

Voice Over: You’re about to listen to another episode of What The Hell Just Happened?! Join Paul Edwards and his guests as they discuss and sometimes even solve some interesting HR problems.

Paul: And… I’m gonna go off the rails sometimes and talk about whatever I want.

Kristen: For everyone to fill out. [laughing]

Paul: [laughing] How did we do?

Kristen: How did we do!

Amanda: [laughing]

Kristen: And they had great questions like, was our hair too long or too short?

Amanda: Oh! [laughing]

Kristen: Did you find our outfits interesting?

Paul: I love, okay. So…

Kristen: Yeah.

Amanda: [laughing]

Paul: Mental note: find Buttercup.

Kristen: Yes! Look up Buttercup, if you like that kind of thing.

Paul: For everybody who’s listening, go to Spotify, right?

Kristen: And look up Buttercup.

Amanda: [laughing]

Paul: Look up Buttercup and give them a listen and see what we can do to push these guys up over the top.

Amanda: Yeah! Local music.

Kristen: [laughing]

Paul: So that they’re the headliner.

Amanda: Yes!

Paul: So my last three shows are Smashing Pumpkins with Jane’s Addiction, which was like a big one for me.

Amanda: Yeah.

Paul: And then right before that, I saw The Lumineers.

Kristen: Oh! Cool.

Amanda: So good!

Paul: So well, you know, they were playing, Dave Matthews picked them up for a tour.

Kristen: Okay.

Paul: Which is somebody who I booked a long time ago. Dave Matthews picked them up for a tour and we saw them all those years ago and what they were in that arena about six months ago versus what they were a decade ago was just, it was night and day.

Amanda: Yeah.

Paul: I mean, still the same incredible musicians –

Kristen: Nice.

Paul: But they had clearly just matured and grown.

Kristen: Maybe they did a performance evaluation and got some feedback. [laughing]

Paul: Maybe they did! [laughing]

Amanda: Speaking of performance evaluations…

Paul: Do you want us to stand in front of the mic and not move the whole show?

Kristen: [laughing]

Paul: Or did you enjoy the movement?

Kristen: Yes.

Paul: Yeah, those are things that I would have to critique bands about. I had one band, I swear they would step up to the microphones and I could spread baby powder all over the stage and there wouldn’t be a single footprint in it.

Kristen: [laughing]

Paul: They were just like, “We’re here to play.”

Amanda: Statues.

Kristen: Yeah.

Paul: Yeah. We are not going to be doing anything exciting up here.

Kristen: Right? It’d be just like you played the CD and walk away. [laughing]

Paul: Just enjoy it. Yeah.

Amanda: Yup. So performance evaluations.

Kristen: Yes!

Amanda: That’s a fun topic.

Kristen: Theirs was unique, but of course –

Paul: This is where we’re going with this?!

Amanda & Kristen: Yes!

Paul: I was like, “Why are we talking about music?”

[laughing]

Paul: “Because I like this podcast.”

Kristen: This is fun, but what are we, what’s the point? Well, the HR nerd in me, when I saw that was like, Ah!

Paul: So Buttercup did a –

Kristen: HR is everywhere!

Paul: It is.

Amanda: Yes!

Kristen: [laughing]

Paul: So they did a performance evaluation.

Kristen: Yup.

Paul: I love it.

Kristen: And it made me think about how, you know, a lot of people avoid giving feedback to their employees until it really gets…

Amanda: Till it’s too big.

Kristen: Till it’s too big, right? It’s a lot. So and what this made me think of was people want feedback. They wanted feedback so much, they went out into the audience and said, “How did we do?” [laughing] “Do you like us?” You know? And so, you know, people do want to hear feedback. So what I wanted to kind of use this as a segue way into how, what kind of guidance we give on giving feedback to employees and when it’s appropriate.

Paul: It’s, this is a very difficult subject because people learn how to receive feedback based off of how they’ve been given feedback.

Amanda: Yes! That is so, well especially for like most of our members, their staff, like their office managers and stuff are quite young nowadays.

Paul: Yeah.

Amanda: And they may have worked like a retail or something like that beforehand where they got like reprimanded for something.

Paul: Everything was a reprimand.

Amanda: Exactly. So going into like this environment, they may be scared to receive feedback.

Kristen: Or they got the compliment sandwich, you know?

Amanda: Yes!

Kristen: The “You’re great at this and you’re bad at that but you’re good at this other thing.”

Amanda: Yeah.

Paul: Right.

Kristen: So they don’t trust anything.

Paul: They call that a compliment sandwich? I have a different term for that for everybody listening.

[laughing]

Paul: For everybody listening, when you say, “Hey, we really like what you do over here, but…” and then you say something negative and then you finish it with “And we really love your personality and the way you do your hair.” That’s a compliment sandwich giving negative feedback in the middle. And it doesn’t, it’s not very advantageous. It actually takes away from your ability to give people compliments because they’re always waiting for the job, for the shoe to drop.

Amanda: Yeah!

Paul: So I tell you, “Hey, you’re doing great!” And then I always tell you, “But…”

Kristen: And you’re holding your breath. [laughing]

Amanda: Yeah.

Paul: That’s not a great way to get people feedback.

Amanda: Yeah.

Paul: You know, gosh, I have so many ways I can go on this because, you know, feedback is hard. Giving it, receiving it, like I said, the way it was given to you, like when you’re growing up, how did your parents give you feedback is going to impact you.

Amanda: Uh huh.

Paul: Something that really surprised me because I’m probably on the wrong end of this. I’m probably more combative when I get feedback that I don’t want to hear or that I don’t like. I’m probably on the more combative side of it. I need to process. That’s what I need. I need a minute, an hour, a day, maybe a week.

Kristen: Yup. [laughing]

Paul: Depending on what the feedback was like, because it’s just… I don’t know, it’s that reptilian brain. Like, it’s a fight or flight thing.

Amanda: You’re a reptile? [laughing]

Paul: We all have that reptilian brain.

Amanda: That’s a conspiracy right there.

[laughing]

Paul: Going back to the cookie episode…

[laughing]

Paul: Okay, so feedback. Yeah, it’s really hard to do. I was surprised that… I hate to use this term, ‘younger folks’, people in their just coming into the workforce have been maybe for a decade, maybe 15 years. They’re more craving of this feedback –

Kristen: Yeah.

Paul: Than I ever was because I always wanted to prove to you I knew what I was doing. I didn’t need your help. I’m really good at what I’m doing. And, you know, that was just kind of how I was taught to be.

Kristen: Well, and you probably took feedback as you’re not doing it right. Like you’re failing.

Amanda: Oh, that’s true. Yeah. Which there’s positive feedback…and feedback can be constructive.

Kristen: Is constructive. Yeah. It’s meant to improve what you’re doing, not just to make you feel bad about what you’ve done in the past. [laughing]

Amanda: Yeah for sure.

Paul: Yeah. But you are a product of the habits that you’ve been around.

Amanda: Yes.

Paul: So if everybody who has been in charge of giving you feedback is always given in a not the best way, then you’re a product of that. I think I am.

Amanda: I think it’s safe to say, like if you’re an employer and you have a new hire, wouldn’t it be okay to just ask them, “How do you prefer I give you feedback?” You know what I mean?

Kristen: Yeah.

Amanda: “What would be the best way? Like what?” Because I think people, isn’t there that whole thing where people like feedback in different ways? Some people want to be, like, publicly recognized for the things they do. Some people just want like a high five, you know?

Kristen: Mm hmm.

Amanda: Like isn’t there ways that and then, of course, constructive feedback, that’s a different story. I remember I had one manager. The only time that I had experience with good feedback in retail was, she would just ask me in the moment, “Is it okay if I give you some feedback right now?” And sometimes I would be like, “No, I need a minute,” you know what I mean? And other times I’d be like –

Paul: She respected that.

Amanda: She did. Yeah. And it was great. Yeah. So I think it’s just communication.

Paul: Well, I want to talk about how hard it is for a manager or an owner manager of a business to have to give feedback to 12 different people, 12 different ways.

Kristen: Yeah.

Amanda: That’s true. That’s true.

Paul: It’s not possible.

Amanda: Yeah.

Paul: Unless you are amazing. And then you shouldn’t be an owner. You should actually be someone who’s teaching other people how to give feedback.

Kristen: Right?

Paul: Yeah. Because you are a unicorn if you’re good at giving everybody who receives feedback in a different way. But being aware that different people receive feedback different ways –

Amanda: Uh huh.

Paul: Can be very, very helpful for a manager.

Kristen: Yeah.

Paul: So, you know, for me it’s like, okay, I have my three tricks. I’m going to figure out which one you want. Do you want it super direct or I need to soften it for you and are you somewhere in the middle?

Amanda: Hmm. Yeah.

Paul: And that’s what I’m going to run with. That’s about –

Amanda: Make sense.

Paul: The best I can do.

Kristen: Yeah. And that could be a communication with a new hire. Like, “Hey, this is how I typically give feedback. So this is what you can expect.”

Paul: Yeah.

Kristen: You know, “How does that work for you?” Have a conversation with them. I think a lot of times the people just avoid that conflict altogether, but they avoid it for too long.

Paul: Right?

Kristen: And then it gets to that point where it’s like, “Okay, this person’s –

Amanda: I need to terminate them!

Kristen: Yeah.

Amanda: [laughing]

Kristen: “They’ve been doing this for, you know, three months and I can’t handle it anymore.”

Paul: And I finally got to it now.

Kristen: Yeah.

Amanda: Yeah. For sure.

Paul: And I’m so upset that I can’t give them the kind of feedback in the way that they can hear it.

Kristen: And they’re picking up their own feedback. If you’re not giving them feedback…

Paul: They’re making it up.

Kristen: They’re making it up in their head.

Amanda: Oh that’s interesting.

Kristen: So if it’s like, “Well, I see everybody gets here 10 minutes late and then I can get here 10 minutes late too, because nobody said anything to me about it.”

Paul: Oh, what a great point.

Amanda: Oh!

Kristen: That’s the feedback you’re inadvertently giving to them, even though it’s by giving them nothing.

Amanda: That’s interesting. So even not giving them feedback is giving them feedback.

Kristen: Right.

Amanda: In some way, shape or form.

Kristen: Because it’s reinforcing that what they’re doing is okay, not a problem, whatever it is. But if you communicate, “Hey, I noticed you were late. What’s going on? From now on, can you, you know, try to be here on time?”

Amanda: Uh huh.

Kristen: That’s, “Oh, okay. That matters. I do need to be here on time.”

Paul: Right.

Kristen: You know, I think just because you take context clues, if you’re not being given the specific information.

Paul: That’s a very, very good point.

Amanda: So, I mean, what do you –

Paul: So a void of feedback is feedback in and of itself.

Kristen: Uh huh.

Paul: Mind blowing!

Kristen: [laughing]

Amanda: That is, that is a great point.

Paul: Well, this fits with if you don’t create some kind of culture, some kind of structure around some kind of culture and connect it to what you’re up to –

Amanda: Yeah.

Paul: Your employees will create it for you.

Kristen: Uh huh.

Amanda: That’s true.

Paul: And that, oftentimes, is one employee will create it for you.

Kristen: Yup.

Paul: And more often than not, you won’t like that.

Kristen: Right?

Paul: You won’t like how that gets created.

Amanda: So, I mean, what do you suggest for that manager that needs to give constructive feedback to an employee? But the manager is kind of conflict avoidant and this feedback is kind of conflict related. Like how would you suggest they approach that situation? First time offense, not like it’s been an ongoing issue.

Paul: Oh.

Amanda: They just think, “I should probably talk about this or I’m just never going to talk about it.”

Paul: I think they should avoid it and…

Amanda: What great advice. [laughing]

Paul: They should think about it.

Amanda: End podcast here. [laughing]

Paul: They should complain about it. Yeah. They should complain about it at home to their spouse.

Amanda: Nice.

Kristen: [laughing]

Paul: Until they don’t want to hear it anymore.

Amanda: Yeah.

Kristen: Do a lot of eye rolling. [laughing]

Paul: And as you get to work, just avoid that employee.

[laughing]

Amanda: Yup. Never talk to them again.

Paul: That’s the best way to probably –

Amanda: Yeah.

Paul: Finish that, if your feedback –

Amanda: That will be the soundbite that goes on Instagram.

[laughing]

Paul: Right?

Kristen: Just avoid it.

Paul: Yeah, okay. Some of the tricks, like some of the things is, understand that you’re trying to attack the problem, not the person.

Amanda: Yes!

Paul: You said it before. We write it all the time. It’s great guidance. Talk about what the issue is and how it impacts everybody around them without making that person to blame or, you know, to do your best.

Amanda: Yeah.

Paul: Like you can’t, I can’t really, if I’m telling you, “You’re late and it’s having an impact on the patients because you’re 10 minutes late. Other people have to do your job for you when you’re not here, et cetera. It impacts the patients. We start running late for lunch. We get off late for lunch, it impacts all of us. We’re kind of cranky.” I can’t not involve you in that.

Kristen: Right.

Paul: So there is a you in that sort of thing.

Amanda: Yeah.

Paul: If I can keep it a little more objective and not use words like, “Well, it feels like you don’t care.”

Kristen: Right.

Paul: “You know, you’re not coming here on time, just really sends a message to the team that you don’t care about them.” That’s your mom talking.

[laughing]

Amanda: Yeah.

Paul: By the way, incredibly effective.

[laughing]

Paul: But I don’t think it’s effective in the work context.

Amanda: Yeah.

Paul: It can be kind of triggering.

Kristen: Right.

Paul: So being a little more matter of fact, as a manager who doesn’t want to deliver feedback or really what you’re doing is you’re learning how to do it, is probably one of the best things that you can do. Organize your thoughts, put just a few things down on paper that you want to say, that you want to remind yourself to say, to help you keep on track and to keep it succinct and keep it as objective as you can.

Amanda: I think that’s the most important part is the objective part of it, because that’s I think when I look back at all the feedback that made me nervous, it was like an entirely subjective conversation.

Paul: Right.

Amanda: You know, and I always left being like, “Okay, wait,” you know? I just felt like it was like they just didn’t like me in some way or another. I didn’t really understand what I was doing wrong.

Paul: Right.

Amanda: So the objective piece I think is huge.

Paul: I think it helps.

Kristen: Yeah.

Paul: You lean, if you lean more into the objective.

Kristen: Right.

Paul: And I think one other thing to put out there is to, with new employees, set the expectation with them, for them, that you’re going to be giving them feedback and go ahead and talk about it. Like I had a manager stand up one day. She, I think she must have had 30 or 40 employees, maybe two locations. She had a doctor who she stood up and he was sitting right there and he was nodding his head yes. She said, “This man is the absolute most conflict avoidant person that you will ever meet in your life. And when he does finally say something, he is absolutely awful.”

Amanda: Oh, no.

[laughing]

Paul: And he just, he’s got his arms crossed, he’s got a smile on his face.

Kristen: He’s like, “Yup.”

[laughing]

Paul: And his head is just shaking. And she, you know, she just and then she proceeded to give some great ideas. Obviously, he hired her because she was good at giving feedback. So that office functioned quite well. But she said, “One of the things that I tell all employees…” So getting back to what I was saying about what to expect… “I tell all employees that every now and then, doctor will get a little frustrated and he’ll give you feedback and it sounds a little aggressive, but I want you to know he’s probably the sweetest, kindest man on the face of the earth. He’s just frustrated and he’s so focused on treatment that he’s just not great at giving feedback. So if he says something that upsets you, just please let it roll off, you can come talk to me about it. But he’s just trying to make you better. And most importantly, he’s trying to make things better for the patient.”

Amanda & Kristen: Uh hmm.

Paul: I mean, that’s that –

Kristen: Yeah, it takes that personal attack out of it.

Paul: She did both. She’s like, “And you can expect from me, if you’re late, you’re going to hear from me. If you’re missing this, you’re going to hear from me. But I also want to hear from you.”

Kristen: Yeah.

Paul: “If you’re having trouble getting to work, talk to me about it. Don’t make me discover it in a timekeeping report right at the end of the month that you’re late all the time. If you’re, if you see you’re having trouble, because you’re so important to us first thing in the morning, you gotta let me know.”

Amanda: Yeah. Communications a two way street straight.

Paul: Yeah.

Amanda: Feedback’s a two way street, I think, too.

Paul: Yeah.

Amanda: Yeah.

Kristen: Yeah. And keeping it just that open line of communication. It doesn’t always have to be a scheduled meeting in the back office where you sit down for an hour and a write up. It can just be a conversation. “Hey, what’s going on today?” See what’s –

Amanda: Yeah.

Kristen: You might find out they have something going on that’s a temporary thing, but once that’s over, they won’t have these issues anymore. And then now you’re aware of it, and no one’s –

Paul: And they’re aware that you’re aware of it.

Kristen: Walking on eggshells. Exactly.

Paul: That’s one of the things –

Kristen: Yeah.

Paul: Is making others aware that you’re aware of it. And I, one more thing that I want to offer that just came to mind. I too often frame, I’ve learned…I’ve gotten better at this, but I too often frame my internal conversation where I’m getting ready to give somebody feedback that I think they may not want to have, is that, “What are they thinking? They’re not thinking like me. I would never do that. I know, I know how this should go. I was…I worked on a farm when I was nine years old.”

[laughing]

Paul: “I know how to drive a tractor. I can’t believe that they don’t know this thing.”

Kristen: Right?

Amanda: Yeah.

Paul: So that’s the other thing is that when you don’t tell people you’re withholding information from them and they know they feel your frustration or they like you said, they fill in the gaps.

Kristen: Uh hmm. But they might be wrong. [laughing]

Paul: Yeah, they could be very, very wrong.

Kristen: Yeah. You want to make sure they’re filling in the gaps the right way with the actual correct performance that you’re looking for, so…

Paul: I was on a big camping trip three or four years ago. There was a lot of people there, back in North Carolina, and I go every year and this woman walks up to me, I’ll call her a girl. She’s a woman at that point, she used to go to the live music venue that I don’t, did we start this podcast with that?

Amanda: We did, about concerts!

[laughing]

Amanda: It’s coming back around.

Paul: She said, “You know, you always stand at the end of the bar and you look mean, you look like an…just like, you know, I’ll just say it.

Amanda: You got resting witch face.

Paul: Yeah. She’s kinda like, “You just kinda seem like an asshole.”

Amanda: Yeah. [laughing]

Paul: “I just want you to know, I think you’re just the sweetest guy.”

[laughing]

Paul: You know, because we’re camping and I’m not standing, you know, I’m not planning on bouncing anybody.

Kristen: Right? [laughing]

Paul: Or having to clear up some trouble or catching bartenders stealing from me. So, you know, I was in a different state of mind.

Amanda: Uh hmm.

Kristen: Yeah.

Paul: And I was like, “Thank you?”

[laughing]

Paul: So, yeah. Fill in the gaps.

Kristen: Yeah, yeah.

Amanda: That’s great.

Paul: All right, feedback.

Amanda: Yeah.

Paul: It’s hard. Good luck with that, everybody. [laughing]

Amanda: Good luck. Have fun!

Kristen: Don’t be afraid of it.

Amanda: Yeah, don’t be afraid. It’s fine.

Paul: More is better. You can get better at it. It is a talent that you –

Amanda: Practice!

Paul: You can develop.

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