Episode 903: The Hidden Risk of Taking Advice Without Context

Paul: California can be very different than if we might answer the same question in say, South Carolina. 

CeCe: Yeah, that’s one of the biggest red flags. If you’re asking somebody for advice on what to do about an HR issue, and they give you the answer without asking you 50 questions first, don’t listen to that answer. 

Paul: Don’t. 

CeCe: 99% of the time, that is not accurate.

Voiceover: You’re about to listen to an episode of What the Hell Just Happened? Join Paul Edwards and his guests as they discuss interesting HR topics and solve some of our listeners’ submitted questions. 

Paul: And occasionally I’ll go off topic to talk about whatever I want. Think barbecue, space exploration, growing your business. The things that interest all of us. 

All right. Welcome to What the Hell Just Happened. Today’s show, I’m joined by CeCe. CeCe, say hi. 

CeCe: Hi. 

Paul: Hi. CeCe, you used to be HR here. 

CeCe: I did. 

Paul: Yeah. And now CeCe is our COO. How did that happen? No, no, I’m not making a joke. No, I don’t mean ‘God, how did that happen?’, I mean.

CeCe: From my perspective, I think I always approach things with curiosity and I want to learn as much as I can about anything I am allowed to or welcome to stick my nose in. 

Paul: Yeah. 

CeCe: And then, you know, I offer where I think I can be of value, whether it’s input or actually doing the doing or whatever that is. 

Paul: CeCe was really good at hiring. You’re really good at recruiting and hiring. You kind of raised the level and found a lot of people, not everybody works out.

CeCe: Yeah. 

Paul: But I think everybody that you hired had a good chance of working out.

CeCe: I think that’s a key reason why I’m good at it. It’s because all, I need to understand the job to put the right person in it. So I try to, you know, be as involved in the thing as I can to learn as much as I can to understand what someone really needs to be successful.

Paul: You also expanded your knowledge in business. You were in college while you were here full-time, and raising a child, having a family, and doing everything else. You also spent some time 

CeCe: And I only failed at one of those things. 

Paul: I would call it a failure. I would call it a resounding success. That’s how I would put it. That’s how I’m going to frame that. It’s really fun to have you on the show because you have this business perspective. You’re getting an even bigger business perspective because I’ve just dumped a lot of stuff on you, and you have to do those things now. So my plan for this season is like 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 episodes, I’m going to pick three of our HR Roundup questions, you know, over at CEDR, formulate it on the legal side, and then on the human side. And what we’re going to do this season is take some of those questions, and we’re going to go a little bit deeper. 

CeCe: Yeah. Because putting them together is harder than you might think because what’s the HR answer to anything, it depends.

Paul: It just depends. Yeah. 

CeCe: So this gives us the opportunity to talk about some of the things it depends on. And these questions are submitted to us. And we don’t have all the information that we need. 

Paul: So if a member reaches out to CEDR we have everything we need. I want to list some of those things: What state they’re in. What city they’re in. How many employees they have. 

CeCe: What their policy says. 

Paul: What their policy says, and if they’re our member, we know what their policy says because we customized different policies in different places, in different policies, in different places, not because of what you want, but because of what the law says you must do. So that’s another reason why we need to know the city. We would want to know what you have done in this case before. If it has come up before, how have you treated people? We may want to know about protected classes, even though everybody’s in a protected class at any time. Everybody, if you’re listening, you’re in a protected class as well. And then as we work our way through the issue, there’s usually several more questions. So it’s really hard to take a listener’s question and give an answer, and say I know I got that right because the answer in one state California can be very different than if we might answer the same question in say, South Carolina. 

CeCe: Yeah. That’s one of the biggest red flags. If you’re asking somebody for advice on what to do about an HR issue, and they give you the answer without asking you 50 questions first, don’t listen to that answer. 

Paul: Don’t. 

CeCe: 99% of the time, that is not actually the right answer. 

Paul: It’s probably not, because they didn’t gather enough from you.

CeCe: Yes.

Paul: Yeah. So, we’re going to go through, we’ve got three questions that have been asked, and we’re going to expand on a little bit and just kind of have a little bit more fun with it. Give a little bit more context. So this is HR Roundup, the question and answer expanded edition. I gotta come up with something better than that. The question came in, ‘I was speaking to a colleague about payroll being run a day late, and they said that when that happens, a business owner is required to cut employees their checks so they don’t have to wait for delayed direct deposit.’ And then the question is, ‘Is that true? It seems drastic for a slight delay’. And I gotta say, you just said what the problem is with when they asked their colleague and they gave him an answer. That answer may or may not be correct. It just depends on where they’re at. So if you’re in South Carolina, and your colleague is in California, your colleague has answered the question properly for them. For themselves. In South Carolina they could give a crap if you ever pay your employees. That was a little joke, South Carolina. The thing here for you to know is that generally, the feds say once you establish a payday, they don’t tell you how you have to do it, but once you establish a payday, you need to stick to it.

CeCe: Yeah. 

Paul: But they don’t offer a lot of penalties. And they don’t say something like, you know, you need to stick to it, but by no means may you go five days beyond that. Other states say you got to pay on that day. If you know you’re not going to pay on that day, this is what you’ve got to do.

And then still other states say you can’t take more than five days or three days or whatever their  law states. So, you ever been late on payroll? 

CeCe: Okay. I’ve never been late on payroll, but I’ll tell you about the biggest mistake I’ve ever made. And by biggest I mean the most impactful, right? Because a lot of mistakes might feel bigger, but the actual impact’s small. This impacted a lot. I’ll try to boil it down because this was the most ridiculous payroll schedule I’ve ever heard of. But we would run payroll, let’s say, on the 10th of every month. But it was through the 15th of every month. So we were forecasting out. 

Paul: Oh, you were forecasting? Yes. 

CeCe: Yeah. We’ve had to forecast out to the end of the payroll period. And then they got their check on the 15th and it was through the 15th. And then you had to go do the reconciliation and all that nonsense. 

Paul: Oh, you had to go back and change the hours to exactly what they had. 

CeCe: Yes. 

Paul: Oh my gosh. 

CeCe: But in this instance, we were using a very well-known payroll software. They don’t do any of the setup for you. And so every pay period, I had to go say, ‘Forecast out this many days’. So I had to calculate the working days, not the calendar days. And I made a mistake. So I made a mistake in the number of working days that I was telling the system to forecast out, and I shorted every single hourly employee in a, 150 person company one day of pay. And that was not discovered until payday. And so, you know, the first person came to me and said, ‘My check is wrong’. And I said I’ll look into it. And as I’m looking into it, you know I’m getting another person and another person and another person, I didn’t notice my own check was actually wrong too at this point. And then, of course, you know, I got to the bottom of it and realized, ‘Oh my gosh, what the hell just happened?’ I, I made a yeah. So I realized I made this huge error. You know, there’s so much more that goes into it than the law, too, right? We talked about the human side. And so the, even though we probably could have made that adjustment on the next check, it’s one day we got everybody paid the bulk on time. It’s a forecasted. They hadn’t even worked it yet. all those things. 

Paul: So really you’re probably in pretty good shape. 

CeCe: Yeah. Culture-wise, there was no way that management was going to say, ‘No. They’ll just get paid that later’, because people were crying about, ‘What am I going to do? I need my whole check. I gotta pay my bills. I’ve got kids to feed, I’ve got these things’. And so, you know, I, I discovered the problem, and I thought, ‘What am I going to do? What am I? How can I fix this?’ Because those well-known payroll companies will charge you an arm and a leg to do it same day. 

Paul: Yeah. 

CeCe: Yeah. And you know, payday it was like a Friday. So they were not going to get that money till Monday. So 

Paul: At best. 

CeCe: Yeah. If, if we send a direct deposit. So what I did was cut 75 manual checks for one day of pay, so entered them in the system. Here’s the hours I owe, you know, each person. Put it in, it told me what the net was, and we cut 75 individual checks. So that was a lot of work. 

Paul: Yeah. 

CeCe: But that’s what we had to do to make it right. 

Paul: If you’re out there listening, and you have a manager that works for you, I want you to remember this story because it takes so much work when you make a mistake like this. And a very honest, innocent mistake. The amount of work that you have to do to correct this sort of thing is huge. 

CeCe: Yeah. 

Paul: And I think, you know, the other part of it and I and I’m going to toot the horn. I’m going to do the horn. Toot, toot. I think what matters here is what you mentioned, the fees that payroll companies charge to help you correct this kind of mistake. But just being able to get the help. So you do this at one of the major. I’m not going to name one because I don’t want to get sued. Good luck getting someone on the phone to walk you through this and help you understand what it is. 

CeCe: I couldn’t even get them to help me figure out what went wrong.

Paul: Right. Over at CEDR, we started working with a company ten years ago who work nationally doing payroll. And they’re not as cheap as Gusto, which is, you know, they charge the least that you can possibly charge. They’re not as expensive as the most expensive. They’re not anywhere near the most expensive. But their level of service is fantastic.

CeCe: Yeah, absolutely.

Paul: So you can get in touch with them and you can get it figured out. And they’re going to help you no matter where you’re at. 

CeCe: Yeah. Yeah. If we had been working with our payroll company then, I would have just had to write the checks. 

Paul: They would have told you. 

CeCe: They would have told me what was wrong, and they would have told me what to pay everybody.

Paul: Yep. You would have gotten the email shortly thereafter making the phone call or sending an email going, ‘I screwed up. Help, help help’. 

CeCe: Yes. Yeah. 

Paul: And they would have done most for you by just generating a report and getting it. Okay. I think we answered that question. We expanded that a little bit. 

CeCe: Yeah. Well, I think the one important thing is that the person that they went to for help was probably right, but missed a lot of the whys. And if they had just taken the person’s advice, they would have still done the right thing, but might have had some resentment. And that’s the real value in getting informed guidance, right? Even if the guidance is the same, if you can feel better about the informed guidance. 

Paul: Well, I mean, if you if they had called in here and said, ‘What do I do?’, it’s highly likely they would have heard maybe if they weren’t in California, ‘Well, I’m looking at the statute and stuff here. You just got to get them paid as soon as possible.’ And if the doctors said, ‘Well, so fine, I could just take care of this on Monday or Tuesday when I have time’, it is highly likely you would have heard back from our expert here, ‘Yeah, but you got to realize people are living paycheck to paycheck, doc. And I think maybe this is something you’re going to want to try and correct today’. You know, just to maintain your culture. 

CeCe: Yeah. 

Paul: So, okay, let’s move on to our next one. ‘I just learned that an employee is behaving inappropriately, now what do I do?’ Right? So the real question, okay, and and we get this in some form or another all the time. 

CeCe: Of course. 

Paul: Happens a lot, and I’ve had it happen and had to correct managers in my own companies. ‘It’s been brought to my attention that one of my male employees has made inappropriate comments to several female employees.’ By the way, everybody, doesn’t have to be a male. It could be a female making it inappropriate. I have a story. Don’t let me forget, don’t let me forget to tell it. I need to finish the question. ‘The female employees didn’t make a formal complaint, but mentioned it in passing, saying that they had just brushed it off, even though they didn’t like what he was saying. Even though they didn’t complain about it I want this addressed, and I want the behavior to stop. So how do I approach this?’ And in our answer, we started with ‘You can’t unhear things’. Meaning just because other people, just because they didn’t lodge a formal complaint, doesn’t mean that you, you don’t need to do something about it.

CeCe: And it doesn’t even have to be the person affected. 

Paul: That’s right. 

CeCe: It could be a witness. I’ve had that happen. 

Paul: Yeah. Yeah. You have to take some kind of action. Your next step is to investigate and document. So investigate and document. I mean, that feels like, ‘Oh my god, we’re running an investigation’. We get out our badges, right? We get our badges, and we run out, and we detain people. 

CeCe: Get out the polygraph. 

Paul: You know, polygraph, people up against the wall spread em. And we’re going to answer some questions here. That’s not exactly what you’re going to do. You should probably leave the badge, and you’re going to do it quietly. But you are going to investigate. Here’s what I would do: First, I would walk out, and I would go have a few conversations. Everybody may not even understand why they’re in the conversation with me. What I’m trying not to do is out the person who has told me what they’ve told me, or I’ve overheard what I’ve overheard. And also, I don’t want to get the ball rolling against the person the complaint has been made, because I don’t know if the complaint is valid yet. 

CeCe: Right. 

Paul: I start every investigation thinking that the complaint is valid, even if I have doubt in my mind. 

CeCe: I’ve had situations where the person making the claim was known to sort of misrepresent certain circumstances. And so sometimes it’s trying to understand what that person’s role is, too. So maybe you’re asking if they overheard this conversation, but then it’s also, ‘And what was this person’s role in that?’

Paul: Yeah. 

CeCe: So it’s getting to both sides of it to, to back up not only is the complaint real, did this actually happen, but did it happen the way that this person is claiming it did. Because if they have an ulterior motive, I might have two problems to deal with now.

Paul: Yeah. Yeah. Is it time? I think it’s time for my story. Because this is getting really boring. Hahaha. We get a call in, and this has been a decade ago so I feel like I feel okay sharing this. 

CeCe: Okay. 

Paul: I’m just gonna cut to the chase. I’m going to cut to the result of the investigation. We had a high-level, very effective manager of a quite successful practice with 22 employees in it. And she was pretty much given carte blanche to run the whole place. And she moved her way up in the company. Very sharp individual, very good. But in the background, she was doing this really weird thing. They had a bunch of bonus programs and stuff, and she decided to put in punitive damages. So the way that they were using the bonus was also to try to help keep employees in line. And by that I mean that they had a system. And I don’t necessarily agree or disagree with this. I think it’s kind of complicated, and it can get you in some trouble. Soon as I say it, CeCe will be like, ‘Oh, that can get you in a lot of trouble. You would be penalized for being late. So if an employee, so if that team was eligible for I don’t know, $5,000 bonus to be split between seven people. You would get less, and your teammates would get more if you were late. So it would cut into your share of the bonus. And they use that in 2 or 3 different ways. But she had another one where she would add on top of it. And I’m just going to say this, she had a closet full of kind of sex toys and stuff, and she would like, make them wear things around their neck. 

CeCe: Oh no. 

Paul: She wouldn’t do it when patients were there. She wasn’t that crazy. But I think it was all fun and games until it wasn’t.

CeCe: Yeah. 

Paul: And so, you know, this was one of those investigations where I was like, well, everybody’s going to have to tell us what’s going on here. And lo and behold, in the investigation it came out and a few of them were like, you know, it became clear that everybody in the practice knew this was going on. And so as part of that investigation, that employee got told stop doing that. And we had to ascertain whether or not she needed to be fired over it. Because of the nature of what she was doing. Because it could have been used in a lot of bad ways against them. But we find out the darndest things once we start digging into stuff. 

CeCe: Have you ever had a situation where a witness came forward and complained, and the person that it supposedly happened to denies it, even though the person that is being accused admits they did it?

Paul: Yes. Is this a story you can share? 

CeCe: It was a pretty simple, you know, somebody was going around slapping people’s butts in the office. 

Paul: Oh my God. 

CeCe: And somebody complained. And the person who was slapping the butts when they were asked about it said yes, it wasn’t sexual. It’s a sports team mentality or whatever. But the person who, the person who complained witnessed it directly happened to said, ‘No, that didn’t happen’. But the but the person’s admitting, not just her either, but other people. 

Paul: ‘I slapped the butt.’ I need to give a piece of advice to the listeners. It has nothing to do, it has everything to do with butt slapping. Okay. If you don’t hear anything else I ever say on this podcast, please doctors, especially the male doctors who are listening right now. When you go to take your group photo, which you have to do every year because you have turnover, you need new people in the picture and everything, and you’re all standing there, and the photographer is trying to get everybody to smile and look at the camera. Please do not reach over and grab or smack any butts in order to get people to smile. What were we talking about? Oh, investigating. We had a guy. He was acting inappropriately. We ran a full investigation. We did get paperwork done. We did memorialize our investigation and what we were told. And then the practice was able to take steps. It doesn’t matter what they did, but whatever happened needed to be documented. So we can say to the outside world now and in the future, when any incident like this happens, this is what we do. So, you know, the investigation, the paperwork serves to not just to help you resolve it and figure out what’s going on, but it also helps you, maybe with it in other instances. You know, and another question, when you have a complaint like that, and this is very, very important. One of the questions is, ‘What do you want to see happen?’ Like, what is the outcome that you’re looking for here? And I want to hear that from the person who is aggrieved. Because they might say, ‘Just tell them to stop. I’m fine. Look, I don’t like it. But just tell them to stop. It needs to stop. It can’t happen anymore.’ 

CeCe: Well, sometimes asking them to put all of it on paper or asking them what their ideal outcome you get an idea of how irrational or crazy people are sometimes too. 

Paul: Yeah. In their complaint lodging. 

CeCe: Yeah. Yeah. 

Paul: However, even if they’re not rational or they’re or they’re I mean, it’s not the right. Did I use the right terminology? 

CeCe: Sometimes. 

Paul: Yes, sometimes. Well, let’s remember everybody, CeCe’s HR. She’s ex HR, she’s jaded. She’s very, very jaded. So in this scenario, I have an employee who’s using our open door policy and has filed a complaint against our manager for creating a work environment that she says makes her feel unable to give feedback on how she thinks things should be done. And she feels like they’re not fostering mutual respect. Talking about the manager. And she goes on to say that she wants to be assigned to someone else the employee wants. So remember that thing I said we want to have happen? We haven’t even asked her yet. And she, in her statement, says that she would like to have someone else manage her while she recovers from the experience of being handled by the current manager. Look, when this comes in, this is serious. When we see something like this, remember I said I always assume by first things I assume that the complaint is real. Cuz I don’t want to be dismissive. So I have to put myself in the mindset to say, ‘Okay, I think this thing is real.’

CeCe: And I think enough of us have had experiences with bad managers to know how much that can impact us. So so that’s not out of the realm of reasonability, right? 

Paul: Right. There’s yet another another purpose for the, for people to write down what’s going on for it. So early on, when I first started this company, we were using different attorneys to gain some perspectives, and we had this one guy who worked both sides of the field, which is kind of rare. He would work for employees and also defend employers. And well, anyway he said that the thing that he hated the most and that we should include with everything is an exit interview. And I was like, ‘Exit interview?’ But we can’t do this in small business. We don’t have anybody who’s disinterested. The only person who could possibly do the exit interview is probably angry as hell. Because both the person that fired the person and the person who got fired are the people who are going to be in that process. So just, he was like, ‘No, it’s just a form’. It asked a couple of questions. And he said, ‘The reason why I hate the exit interview is that if my if my client filled out that exit interview, then what has happened is, is that they now have a snapshot, of what happened. And I cannot easily embellish it. I can’t add context to it. Well, I can add context to it, but I’m constantly battling- 

CeCe: What they put in writing in their own words. 

Paul: And were given with no pressure. And, and he said, ‘So I absolutely can’t stand it when there’s documentation, good documentation in place.’ And so from the other side of the table, he said, ‘But I do love it when I’m defending the employer. And I’ve gotten an exit interview, and someone has written a 19-page manifesto about the practice, and the doctor, and it looks like they are insane because they are. And I just insert it into the record.’ So in this second scenario, we have someone who’s filed a complaint. She said, ‘I’m not comfortable. I don’t I don’t feel respected. I don’t feel like I give any feedback or anything.’ Okay. So now it’s time to investigate, right? It’s the same process. 

CeCe: Yes. 

Paul: But I want to add something here that makes it really difficult for it to stay the same process. I’m gonna add some context. And while I’m paraphrasing all this, the one thing that I could see from the record of the investigation was that the manager was just being nonchalant. And matter of fact, in her communication, and basically she was just standing her ground and insisting that the employee’s feedback was fine. She really was. She was like, ‘It’s fine. I don’t mind getting feedback’. But still, for now, she needed the employee to please follow the current SOP. Case closed. The other thing that I just want to throw in here. Further investigation, because this is all things as HR experts that we’re going to ask, it showed that the manager was well-liked by their peers. And by the practice owners and managers, they, they liked her and that by any measure she was a really good manager at a growing practice. And, and so I want to, I just want to say this about the employee’s complaint. It was very clear, it was damaging. It contained a lot of trigger words, that were some of them were legalese. And in a day in the past, in the day in three years ago, I would have looked at this and said, ‘Hey, I think a lawyer wrote this. She’s got a lawyer on her side somewhere in the background, and they’re setting you up.’ But here’s the problem. It’s today. And this is for sure AI. It’s for sure written by an AI. 

CeCe: Yeah. 

Paul: And the problem with an AI, with AI for all of us is it’s trying to please. And so it wrote for her in a way that made her feel the most harmed. The most victim. And so- 

CeCe: It’s almost like when you go complain to a significant other, and they’re just like, ‘Yes, you’re right, they’re so wrong.’ But then took the extra step to give her, ‘Here’s what you do’. 

Paul: ‘Here’s what you should give them’. 

CeCe: Yeah. 

Paul: I hadn’t even thought about it when I was thinking about this. It took it a step further and said, ‘Would you like for me to write a letter that you could give to the to the management, about this manager, to see if we could get things to change?’ So that’s, you know. Yay. By the way everybody, we’re getting AI tickets all the time. We get them a lot. We’re getting them from your employees, and and by the way, just because AI made it clear and clean doesn’t mean that it’s wrong. I mean, it actually could just articulate it really clearly and well for her so we understand what’s going on.

CeCe: Yeah, sometimes it’s nice because then you don’t have to read their jumbled thoughts, it organized them for them.

Paul: But in this case, you know real complaint. Well articulated. Got to take it seriously. We did an investigation. Fortunately, we didn’t have a he said, she said these conversations have been going on. That manager had been communicating back and forth primarily through text and email, and that sort of thing. So the value here again in the record is, is, ‘Hey, we took it seriously. We did a quick investigation. But part of our investigation surfaced up the actual conversations between the two of you’. And here’s the thing. When I looked at it I thought that the manager was far from dismissive.

CeCe: I agree. 

Paul: I thought she even showed some self-reflection and understanding that this employee was struggling to stay on task, and to follow their SOPs. I think she just really did, she just wasn’t motherly about it. She was not a warm person. She wasn’t mean. She was just right there in the middle. Matter of fact, this is what we do, and this is how we do it.

CeCe: And even referred to in a couple of instances someone else who had more expertise. And let’s verify with this other person because they know more than either of us. 

Paul: Right. 

CeCe: So that shows she is open to feedback. 

Paul: She’s reflective. She’s like, ‘I think I’m right here, but let’s check over here with-’, which she probably knew that she was going to get confirmation. She’s smart. 

CeCe: Yeah. 

Paul: I mean, she was basically like, ‘It’s our current SOP, which we just redid. She’s talking about the thing in one of the communications, which got this employee upset, and so she was just like basically, ‘So I’m going to have to ask you to stick to the SOP’. She, she was like, ‘Look, we do change SOP’s. We just changed this one. You might be on that team in the future’, which I think was a little passive-aggressive. No. Just kidding. You may be a part of that, at that point. But for now she was just like, ‘I need to ask you to follow the SOP’. And then she got to it, and I know that this was the trigger: ‘I’m going to need you to spend less time on focusing on how things need to be different here, and more time on learning our systems. You are new. And you still are struggling in some areas’. So the message is, until you figure this out and play this song note for note right, you do not get to come and tell me how the song how to come improve the song. And the employee didn’t want to hear it. 

CeCe: Yeah. 

Paul: It’s very frustrating. I don’t know how that employee bounces back from that. 

CeCe: Especially after I mean their request was to not work with this manager anymore. Reassign me to somebody who’s not going to hurt my feelings. 

Paul: Yeah, who won’t make me follow the SOPs. I love our response, though. It was short and to the point. It was really basically it goes, you know, we ghostwrite sometimes. And it was short and to the point. It was basically like, ‘Thank you. I’ve looked into the issue. I don’t feel like you know basically we don’t feel like your, your complaint is substantiated by the facts. You are continued to be assigned to work for Kim or Becky or whoever, whoever she is, and please do your best’. Yeah. 

CeCe: Case closed. 

Paul: Case closed. No more feeding that that monster. HR is fun sometimes. I mean, it never works out like that. Where you have everything. Like, you have all the communication. Everything. 

CeCe: Yeah. Yeah. I know usually when you investigate, you find stuff you really didn’t even now you’re like, ‘Oh, God, I got this other problem’. So it’s nice when you get one like that. Just like, nope. 

Paul: Nope. And it’s super important out there for you to support your managers. But not to a fault. Because remember when we got the one with the toys in the closet. Don’t support that. But in this case we have a very good manager. There was no reason for her to be called out. And I think if I, if I recall the notes, the manager wasn’t really upset with her, not even for filing the complaint. 

CeCe: Right. 

Paul: That’s how good of a manager she was. She’s like, ‘Okay, well, we got a complaint. Let’s just deal with it. I don’t have time for this. I don’t have time to be upset about it. Let’s get this over with’. 

CeCe: Yeah. 

Paul: So she was happy to answer any questions, and we got her answers. She answered the, you know, to the accusation and everything. So all good paperwork. All right. That was a bunch of HR nerd out. That’s probably kind of a long episode.

CeCe: Oh, it’s kind of nice to flex that muscle. 

Paul: You did get to flex that, you don’t get to be in HR as much anymore. By the way, since we took her out of HR, CeCe just watches the tickets come in. She’s like, ‘I can answer this one’. Like no, CeCe, don’t answer it. It’s not your job. Once again, CeCe, thanks for lending your HR experience to the podcast.

CeCe: Of course, thanks for having me. 

Paul: All right, everybody, check the show notes. You can join the Roundup, and get that email that comes in every couple of weeks, plus a couple of other cool pieces of education from the folks over at CEDR HR Solutions. 

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